This is one more interesting philosophical discussion
between Srila Prabhupad and his disciple Syamasundara Prabhu. This is only a small
part of the whole conversation.
Just for clarification - Kaka means a crow and Tal tree means a Palm
tree which is common in India. Leibniz defines a Monad as
a simple substance which cannot be divided into parts. A compound substance may
be formed by an aggregation of monads. Thus, a compound substance may be
divided into simple parts.
Syamasundara: Today we are discussing
Gottfried Wilhelm Leibnitz. Leibnitz was a great mathematician. He invented the
calculus. But he was also a philosopher. He said that in the universe every act
is purposeful; that the purpose of the universe is to realize the goals set
forth by God pre-established harmony. Just like He sets two clocks in motion, both
synchronized. One is the body and one is the soul. Even though they are going
together...
Prabhupada: The body is separate, body separate
from the soul. We say that.
Syamasundara: Just like the body is acting, but the
soul is independent. It's not really affected by the body.
Prabhupada: Yes. That's all right. We agree.
Syamasundara: So they are like two clocks going at
the same synchronization, but not together. They are separate.
Prabhupada: But why two clocks? What is the
relationship between the body and the soul? You cannot analyze separately. The
body and the soul, they are practically combined. That example is not complete.
They are two individual clocks. They are not combined.So therefore there is
fallacy of analogy. If there is no common point, you cannot have analogy.
Syamasundara: The common point is that they say the
same time. They have the same time.
Prabhupada: But the same time, gradually one clock
goes slow and the other clock goes fast. This analogy is not perfect. Similar
point. Analogy means there must be a majority of similar points. Similar point
is lacking because the one clock is moving,you'll start the other one moving,
and one may go slow or one may go at higher speed.
Syamasundara: I think it's like this, that the
monad of the body desires a body like this, and the monad of the soul desires
to inhabit a body like this. But they are separate entities, body and soul, and
they work independently of each other.
Prabhupada: It is not exactly the way it is. It
says in the Vedic śastras that the soul is the master of the body. Therefore
how can you say that the body is working independently?This body, I now like to
place my hand here, so I desire and the hand is there,not that all of a sudden
my hand, by not desiring, it is coming...
Syamasundara: He would say the act of your desiring
and the act of the hand coming are simultaneous but they are separate.
Prabhupada: Jugglery of words. It has no meaning.
Syamasundara: Just like the example of the rock
falling in the water. He would say that the water separating and the rock
falling are two separate acts. Neither one affects the other.
Prabhupada: This is nonsense. This argument is
called in Sanskrit kaka-tal-nyaya. There was a tal tree, and one crow came, and
immediately the fruit fell down. And there were two arguers: one said that the
crow sat down on the fruit and it was so light it fell down, and the other said
no, the crow was trying to sit down on the fruit but mean while the
fruit fell and he could not sit. It is like that. It may be coincidence,
the crow was just trying to sit on the fruit and the fruit fell. But these
people's answer is no, the crow first sat down, then the fruit fell. Another says
no, the fruit has fallen down; therefore the crow could not sit. So this kind
of argument has no value. The water separated and the stone fell-they are
nonsensical. Our argument is strong: that if Krsna desires, the stone can float
on the water, despite the law of gravitation. The law of gravitation is not
working. So many huge planets are floating. How they are floating? The law of
gravitation is working here. The stone falls down and goes down in the water.
But that is one of the ingredients of the planet. But the planet itself is
floating in the air. Where is the law of gravitation? Therefore Krsna's desire.
The cause is Krsna's desire. Krsna wanted, "Let it be floating." Or
He has made some arrangement. By law of gravitation every planet should have
gone down, But no. By His order they are all floating. That is Krsna.Is
that all right? Or still more?
Syamasundara: There's another page. This whole idea
is so vague, that the water parting and the rock falling are individual.
Prabhupada: Yes. It is simply useless talk. Because
it is a fact that the fruit has fallen, and the crow has flown away. Now why
should we bother? A waste of time. But both can be possible. These argument-one
is saying that the bird sat down, which is the cause of falling of the fruit,
and the other says the falling down is the cause of the bird's not being able
to sit on it-both can be possible. But we say therefore the ultimate desire is
of God. If God desired that the fruit would not fall, it would not have fallen.
That is our proposition.
Syamasundara: I think you said once that the
devotee picks up the fruit and offers it to Krsna and eats it.
Prabhupada: Yes. We don't see the cause and effect;
we see that ultimate cause is Krsna. "By Krsna's desire we have got this
nice thing. Offer it to Krsna and eat it," that's all.
Syamasundara: So whether the water's parting
allowed the rock to fall in, or whether the rock caused the water to part, it
doesn't really matter.
Prabhupada: It is ultimately depending on God's
will. That is the explanation.
(Excerpted from the talks between Srila Prabhupad
and Syamasundara Prabhu)
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